tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post5010892697815707883..comments2023-10-20T09:37:46.092-04:00Comments on The Philosophical Midwife: Evil's SourceDr. Mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00209597695197799059noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-4359699769826322362008-08-01T10:11:00.000-04:002008-08-01T10:11:00.000-04:00There has been an implicit restriction of time-fra...There has been an implicit restriction of time-frame in my arguments. They concerned life in the here and now, not life in the world to come. As concerns that next life, Christians are quite radical optimists. I for one am a universalist - all will be saved. There can be no more radical optimism than that.<BR/><BR/>I'm unsure whether your example of a possible slide backwards - nuclear war - is meant to be characteristic of the real possibilities here, but I would add that there could be a slow, non-catastrophic slide backward that was human-engineered. The 20th century gave us many examples - Hitler's Germany, Mao's China, Stalin's Soviet Union, the Ayatollah's Iran, etc. I think it partly luck that the Soviet Union didn't win the Cold War - we benefited from inept Soviet leadership. If they had had more clever leaders, the world might be a very different place.<BR/><BR/>I don't find that I have deep disagreements with your sketch of the history of moral and economic progress. But I would suggest that there were quite deliberate attempts to, as it were, spread the wealth and the power. This happened in the U.S. in the early years of the woman's rights movement. Certain men cracked open the doors of power to let women in, and if they had not, we'd be now where we were before. Conscience must stir before societal change can happen.Dr. Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00209597695197799059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-52072785262995460842008-08-01T09:41:00.000-04:002008-08-01T09:41:00.000-04:00Franklin,You seem to think that my Christianity an...Franklin,<BR/><BR/><I>You seem to think that my Christianity and your atheism should make a difference in what we say about moral progress. I'm unsure why this should be so.</I><BR/><BR/>To be honest, that's not really the direction of causality I was suggesting.<BR/><BR/>Rather, I'm suggesting that optimism about human progress is more likely to lead to secular humanism and atheism, and pessimism about human progress is more likely to lead to theism.<BR/><BR/>Here's my model of human progress. The more death, disease and suffering about us, the less we value life. The shorter our expected lifetime, the more impulsive our choices. There has been dramatic moral progress on this planet. Centuries ago, life was cheap. Duels were commonplace. Torture and abuse were normal. Self-determination was very limited. Superstition ruled the day. Illiteracy was standard. The list goes on. There was little time or inclination for deep moral consideration of the issues. What changed was medicine, education, economics, democracy, police forces, social justice and so on. Now, most people in the West live far better than medieval kings. They don't have to breed heirs for their survival. They don't have to fear that everyone they know might be killed tomorrow by an invading army (even armies have higher moral standards these days). Now, people have time to worry about euthanasia, the death penalty, or Janet Jackson's boob. It's Maslow's hierarchy of needs.<BR/><BR/>Yes, all of this could be lost. A limited nuclear war would take away education, medicine, policing etc. We would once again be thrown back into a dark age. It is fragile from that perspective. However, moral progress isn't appearing by magic. It's a mechanism. Improve people's lot in life (and their lifespan), and that generally results in moral progress.<BR/><BR/>I don't think all Christians are pessimists, and many probably share my views. But I'm using the term Christian pretty loosely here. The Christian bloggers I've interacted with all seem pessimistic. Maybe you are not as pessimistic as you seem, but I notice you haven't given an opinion about moral progress since the Dark Ages. :)Doctor Logichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03182745193512661770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-71527748828988896152008-08-01T08:25:00.000-04:002008-08-01T08:25:00.000-04:00I suspect that I haven't been clear. The existence...I suspect that I haven't been clear. <BR/><BR/>The existence of moral progress is not inconsistent with my world-view. Indeed I suspect that, in a sense, I should embrace it. The Church, with its insistence upon the dignity and equal worth of all human beings, did constitute a kind of moral advance; and that advance continues to unfold.<BR/><BR/>But I can think of no reason to suppose that there's no retreat. As a matter of fact, there has been. Nor can I think of a reason why there should not be significant (perhaps near total) retreat in the future. Moreover, I don't think that this view depends upon my Christianity for its truth. Long before I became Christian, at a time when I was a materialist and an atheist, I believed much the same. Then and now I believe that individuals and society too are quite corruptible.<BR/><BR/>You seem to think that my Christianity and your atheism should make a difference in what we say about moral progress. I'm unsure why this should be so. <BR/><BR/>Second point. I never said, nor did I mean to imply, that what we do in this world was pointless. I never said that societal transformation was impossible or pointless (or any other such thing). Rather all I said was that, if there is to be such transformation, its seeds must be found in the transformation of the "hearts" of individual human beings. I applaud the progress that has been made. (I'm a great admirer of Western democracy, in particular of the U.S. Constitution.) I hope that it will continue. But I think that it is fragile, that we cannot be certain of its continuation, that it might fail, and that ultimately its fate depends upon the moral choices and actions of individuals.Dr. Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00209597695197799059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-26940056377043078282008-07-31T22:09:00.000-04:002008-07-31T22:09:00.000-04:00Franklin, I think it's interesting that you only a...Franklin, <BR/><BR/>I think it's interesting that you only acknowledge pockets of progress.<BR/><BR/>It seems that all the Christian bloggers give a similar answer, denying any net progress. <BR/><BR/>It's a thought-provoking observation for me. To imagine being in a world where everything we do in this world is ultimately pointless and hopeless. And, consequently, only personal, non-physical change ("of heart") is valued and rewarded.<BR/><BR/>I suppose the interesting question would be this. Suppose it is shown that the world has made moral progress over the centuries, and that this trend continues today. How would you reconcile that progress with your worldview?Doctor Logichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03182745193512661770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-2928780704796405082008-07-31T18:23:00.000-04:002008-07-31T18:23:00.000-04:00And whence comes the social force that can effect ...And whence comes the social force that can effect change? From where can it come expect through the conversion of the heart?<BR/><BR/>If everyone had always believed homosexuality a perversion that deserved no legal protection, society never would have changed (and as we know, it's in need of change still in this regard). The belief of a vocal minority that change was necessary came first, and this was a change of heart. I grant that this minority might then reform the wider society in ways that act primarily upon thtat wider society, not this or that conscience. But the conscience came first.<BR/><BR/>How do hearts change? I'm afraid that I don't have an answer. Nor can I answer how they become perverted. This is a mystery that (I think) the mind cannot penetrate. It drives to the very heart of the issue of the freedom of the will. But I still maintain that all change for the better begins in the individual human heart and radiates outward from there.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that there are pockets of moral progress, but I think that we're always in danger of a slide downward. Reversal is always a possibility (as was shown by, for instance, Nazi Germany and the the USSR.)Dr. Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00209597695197799059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-445211430824424382008-07-31T14:25:00.000-04:002008-07-31T14:25:00.000-04:00How about the South? Had the North not gone to wa...How about the South? Had the North not gone to war with the South, would slavery have vanished by change to the human heart? By 1865? How about the civil rights movement? Suffrage?<BR/><BR/>Empirically, how do hearts change if not by force of persuasion?<BR/><BR/>Moral progress is made when two things happen. First, there's an increase in empathy. Second, the fear of change has to be overcome.<BR/><BR/>Empathizing with slaves is not quite enough. Slave owners needed to overcome their fear of the new order. And that was done at the point of a gun.<BR/><BR/>I don't see either of these things being prompted (at statistically significant levels) except by social force. <BR/><BR/>Take a more modern example: gay rights. Gays were hated and marginalized by society. They were regarded as creatures that could not be empathized with. Men also feared that being near gay people would make them gay. What changed people's minds? Gay rights laws, and favorable presentation in the media. Thanks to legal protection, gays started coming out of the closet. The average Joe learned that gays were people too, and that they had not contracted homosexuality from the gay friends they didn't realize they had. People lost their fear and restored their empathy.<BR/><BR/>Let me ask you this. Has humanity made moral progress? Is the world better today than it was 1000 years ago? 500 years ago?Doctor Logichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03182745193512661770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-53934351287291254042008-07-22T22:56:00.000-04:002008-07-22T22:56:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.elderchildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09827206019505093406noreply@blogger.com