tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post3967946034618204975..comments2023-10-20T09:37:46.092-04:00Comments on The Philosophical Midwife: The AtonementDr. Mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00209597695197799059noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-82703053786572351692009-06-20T17:38:37.511-04:002009-06-20T17:38:37.511-04:00I regard stories of Jesus healing the sick the sam...I regard stories of Jesus healing the sick the same way I would regard a doctor who had enough doses to inoculate tens of thousands against a deadly disease---but, in fact, only inoculates 20.<br /><br />That he saved 20 lives is not impressive considering that he left thousands to risk death.<br /><br />And being tortured for someone when you have the ability to avoid it without anyone being harmed is not a display of love. Its an exhibition of insanity. Functionally, the "atonement" is a mere guilt trip---and one of a particularly insane form.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-77343214543224800172009-06-18T11:14:48.520-04:002009-06-18T11:14:48.520-04:00If we give an credence at all to the Gospels, Chri...If we give an credence at all to the Gospels, Christ did meet those very kinds of needs. He healed the sick, feed the hungry, etc.<br /><br />About your first point: it was not "Love me or else I'll kill myself". Rather it was "I love you so I'll die for you." These are quite different.Dr. Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00209597695197799059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-80149896129675608862009-06-17T11:29:37.247-04:002009-06-17T11:29:37.247-04:00But how might one lead another to love if one cann...<b><br />But how might one lead another to love if one cannot force that love? One can do no better than reveals one's true nature and hope that this touches the other deeply.<br /></b><br /><br />If that's the goal it seems one destined to fail when directed at a rational being. I would think that a rational person does not feel touched deeply by the love of another because they're willing to inflict self-mutilation, torture and death on themselves to express it.<br /><br />That sounds more like a psychotic ex who call you up a three in the morning saying they're going to kill themselves if you don't take them back.<br /><br />I, for one, would be much more impressed by an expression of God's love which involved healing every injury and disease and disability in the world and meeting the actual needs of the desperately suffering people of this world.<br /><br />THAT would be an expression of love which would make me happy to return that love.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-42961719510565703922009-06-15T08:20:06.607-04:002009-06-15T08:20:06.607-04:00Thanks for the comment. I intend to dig a bit deep...Thanks for the comment. I intend to dig a bit deeper into views of the Atonement. Any sources you suggest I look into?<br /><br />I believe that we agree at bottom. A perfect love can exemplify itself in various ways, and it seems that you're right - the totality of that perfect love can be found in acts other than sacrifice of a life. But there is one act that is most apt to convince others of the perfection of love, and that is when a life is given. It is not as if Christ's love only became perfect on the cross. It was perfect before. But to us ruined creatures who so readily doubt the purity of motives, it was an expression of love that cannot be doubted.Dr. Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00209597695197799059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13195130.post-30023290483817411442009-06-15T06:49:23.643-04:002009-06-15T06:49:23.643-04:00Interesting that you should post about the Atoneme...Interesting that you should post about the Atonement just as it is making for an exciting climax in my own theological endeavors. Interesting, not for you, but for me. Anyway, I just finished my last semester of undergrad and my final paper was about atonement. Past atonement theories, various logical, philosophical, and theological faults within them - and one theme crossed my mind which has not left my mind (and my heart).<br /><br />I agree with your treatment of the atonement whole-heartedly, except for one presumption: that Jesus' death on the cross was the ultimate display of love. First you might say that, no, it was not his death that was the perfect display, (for two thieves also displayed as much), but his willingness to "give his life for his friends" (John 15:13).<br /><br />I will stop belaboring and get to my point. I'd like to offer a redefinition of "give his life." Traditionally the idea is understood as a direct foreshadowing of Christ's death on the cross. Generalizing the statement, we may say that no love is greater than a person dying for her/his friends. But I ask, is it greater to die for your friends, or to live out your entire life as one intent on serving rather than being served, and lowering oneself to the position of a servant rather than a king? Surely we cannot quantitate the various flavors of self-sacrifice. Nonetheless, I think it interesting that we often give self-sacrificial death greater prominence than a life of self-sacrifice, illustrated in a day-after-day sort of way - embodied in Christ, not on the cross, but with a towel and a basin, washing his disciples' feet.<br /><br />Anyway, thank you. I appreciate your thoughts, and I look forward to reading your other posts, as I have only just stumbled upon your blog this late morning.Waltyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09691505440689836940noreply@blogger.com